Discussion:
Soliton
(too old to reply)
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-15 09:35:01 UTC
Permalink
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very large
distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
through the slower one. " From:
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html

The height of the wave is an amplitude.

Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
Jens Rodrigo
2010-12-18 16:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html The
height of the wave is an amplitude.
Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
The amplitude has nothing to do with the speed of sound.
For an ideal gas the speed of sound depends only on the temperature and
is independent of gas pressure. This dependence also applies to air, in
good approximation and can be regarded as an ideal gas.
The speed of sound changes clearly with temperature, a little bit with
humidity - but not with air pressure (atmospheric pressure).

Speed of Sound c in air and the effective temperature:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm
Speed of sound in humid air:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm

Cheers Jens
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-18 17:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html The
height of the wave is an amplitude.
Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
The amplitude has nothing to do with the speed of sound.
Wiki wrote: "The speed of sound is also slightly sensitive (a second-order
anharmonic effect) to the sound amplitude, which means that there are
nonlinear propagation effects, such as the production of harmonics and mixed
tones not present in the original sound (see parametric array)."

Here: Loading Image...

the membrane vibrates with the decreasing amplitude. So the distances
between pulses should decrease with the distance.
Is such the second-order effect observed?
Post by Jens Rodrigo
For an ideal gas the speed of sound depends only on the temperature and
is independent of gas pressure. This dependence also applies to air, in
good approximation and can be regarded as an ideal gas.
The speed of sound changes clearly with temperature, a little bit with
humidity - but not with air pressure (atmospheric pressure).
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances and
compare them?
S*
Jens Rodrigo
2010-12-18 23:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html The
height of the wave is an amplitude.
Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
The amplitude has nothing to do with the speed of sound.
Wiki wrote: "The speed of sound is also slightly sensitive (a second-order
anharmonic effect) to the sound amplitude, which means that there are
nonlinear propagation effects, such as the production of harmonics and
mixed tones not present in the original sound (see parametric array)."
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thoth08BigasDrumEvansChalmette.jpg
the membrane vibrates with the decreasing amplitude. So the distances
between pulses should decrease with the distance.
Is such the second-order effect observed?
Post by Jens Rodrigo
For an ideal gas the speed of sound depends only on the temperature and
is independent of gas pressure. This dependence also applies to air, in
good approximation and can be regarded as an ideal gas.
The speed of sound changes clearly with temperature, a little bit with
humidity - but not with air pressure (atmospheric pressure).
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances and
compare them?
The question was: Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
What has this to do with a vibrating membrane?
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances
and compare them?
Answer yes you can, but why do you want to do this.
What do you want to find out by comparison?

Cheers Jens
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-19 10:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html The
height of the wave is an amplitude.
Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
The amplitude has nothing to do with the speed of sound.
Wiki wrote: "The speed of sound is also slightly sensitive (a
second-order anharmonic effect) to the sound amplitude, which means that
there are nonlinear propagation effects, such as the production of
harmonics and
mixed tones not present in the original sound (see parametric array)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thoth08BigasDrumEvansChalmette.jpg
the membrane vibrates with the decreasing amplitude. So the distances
between pulses should decrease with the distance.
Is such the second-order effect observed?
Post by Jens Rodrigo
For an ideal gas the speed of sound depends only on the temperature and
is independent of gas pressure. This dependence also applies to air, in
good approximation and can be regarded as an ideal gas.
The speed of sound changes clearly with temperature, a little bit with
humidity - but not with air pressure (atmospheric pressure).
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-airpressure.htm
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances and
compare them?
The question was: Is the speed of the sound waves amplitude dependent?
What has this to do with a vibrating membrane?
For a water waves " a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the
wave."
So the smaller pulses travel slower. In the result the spaces between them
becomes bigger. The frequency will be lower with the distance.

If the same is with sound waves then the frequency is the distance
dependent.
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances
and compare them?
Answer yes you can, but why do you want to do this.
What do you want to find out by comparison?
There are many of sound sources where the aplitudes are
increasing/decreasing.
I want to find out the frequency shift (the distance dependent) for sound
waves.
I am sure that it is known but has another name.
S*
Kari Pesonen
2010-12-19 15:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over
very large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
--- clip ---
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
What do you want to find out by comparison?
There are many of sound sources where the aplitudes are
increasing/decreasing.
I want to find out the frequency shift (the distance dependent) for
sound waves.
I am sure that it is known but has another name.
S*
There are no unique answer to your question.
In linear acoustics sound speed of most wave forms is frequency
independent and no new frequency components are developed during
propagation (but existing ones can attenuate with different speed per
unit distance of propagation). This rule concerns harmonic (sinusoidal)
sounds.
But, for example, the speed of bending waves in plates and other
constructions is frequency depended also in linear acoustics.
If the source, receiver or media moves, so called Doppler effect results
in changes in (relative) sound speed, wave length and frequency
(heard/detected).

Sound speed in media depends also on temperature (and in minor degree on
density, humidity,..). The first order approximation is that sound speed
and wave length depends on temperature, but not frequency.

Attenuation (energy losses per unit distance during propagation) in
media is usually frequency dependent. This is why the spectrum of sound
do change the more the longer the distance between the source and
receiver. Usually higher frequency components attenuate faster than
lower ones. If we have only a component with one frequency, attenuation
(geometric one and losses) results in amplitude decrease, but frequency
of most wave forms does not change in linear acoustics (and in
homogenous media).

The situation is little different, when we observe sounds that have high
number of components with different frequencies. Components have well
definable frequency, wave length and speed, but the mixture has not. We
can define, for example, local instantaneous frequency as a phase shift
in time unit. This varies in time and space. For example, human speech
has no unique frequency or periodicity (but has spectrum that varies in
time). Phase speed and group speed (speed of energy and information that
is transported by the wave) may be different

Kari Pesonen
.
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-19 17:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kari Pesonen
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over
very large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
--- clip ---
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
What do you want to find out by comparison?
There are many of sound sources where the aplitudes are
increasing/decreasing.
I want to find out the frequency shift (the distance dependent) for sound
waves.
I am sure that it is known but has another name.
S*
There are no unique answer to your question.
In linear acoustics sound speed of most wave forms is frequency
independent and no new frequency components are developed during
propagation (but existing ones can attenuate with different speed per unit
distance of propagation). This rule concerns harmonic (sinusoidal) sounds.
And with the same amplitudes. I am asking about sounds with
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
Post by Kari Pesonen
But, for example, the speed of bending waves in plates and other
constructions is frequency depended also in linear acoustics.
If the source, receiver or media moves, so called Doppler effect results
in changes in (relative) sound speed, wave length and frequency
(heard/detected).
The most famous is the light redshift. Buy it is not the Doppler effect.
Wiki wrote:
REDSHIFT: ""In the early part of the twentieth century, Slipher, Hubble and
others made the first measurements of the redshifts and blue shifts of
galaxies beyond
the Milky Way. They initially interpreted these redshifts and blue shifts as
due solely to the Doppler effect, but later Hubble discovered a rough
correlation between the increasing redshifts and the increasing distance of
galaxies. Theorists almost immediately realized that these observations
could be explained by a different mechanism for producing redshifts.
Hubble's law of the correlation between redshifts and distances is required
by models of cosmology derived from general relativity that have a metric
expansion of space.[16] As a result, photons propagating through the
expanding space are stretched, creating the cosmological redshift."
Post by Kari Pesonen
Sound speed in media depends also on temperature (and in minor degree on
density, humidity,..). The first order approximation is that sound speed
and wave length depends on temperature, but not frequency.
I am asking about the increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
Probably each sound starts and ends in such way.
Post by Kari Pesonen
Attenuation (energy losses per unit distance during propagation) in media
is usually frequency dependent. This is why the spectrum of sound do
change the more the longer the distance between the source and receiver.
Usually higher frequency components attenuate faster than lower ones. If
we have only a component with one frequency, attenuation (geometric one
and losses) results in amplitude decrease,
So the speed should become lower with the distance. Is it observed?
Post by Kari Pesonen
but frequency of most wave forms does not change in linear acoustics (and
in homogenous media).
Sound from the tuning fork should exhibit the frequency change with the
distance.
Post by Kari Pesonen
The situation is little different, when we observe sounds that have high
number of components with different frequencies. Components have well
definable frequency, wave length and speed, but the mixture has not. We
can define, for example, local instantaneous frequency as a phase shift in
time unit. This varies in time and space. For example, human speech has no
unique frequency or periodicity (but has spectrum that varies in time).
Phase speed and group speed (speed of energy and information that is
transported by the wave) may be different.
A specjal source would be the best.
S*
Ken Plotkin
2010-12-19 16:34:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:58:40 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
<***@wp.pl> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances and
compare them?
One can measure and compare anything. ;-)

If you're looking for nonlinear propagation effects in air, a drum
might not be the appropriate source. Wave propagation in air is
inherently nonlinear, but nonlinearity is negligible at familiar
acoustic amplitudes. It's definitely measurable at high amplitudes,
such as in noise from high thrust jet engines, and what's measured
fits expectations. There is a ton of literature on this. Blackstock
and Hamilton's book is very thorough. You might look up work
published by Vic Sparrow and Kent Kee at Penn State for some recent
results on modeling nonlinear propagation of jet noise.

FWIW, the physical mechanisms of acoustic waves in air and surface
waves in waves are very different, so you need to be careful when
using one as a surrogate for the other.

Ken Plotkin
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-19 16:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Plotkin
On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 18:58:40 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
[snip]
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Is it possible to record the sound from a drum at different distances and
compare them?
One can measure and compare anything. ;-)
If you're looking for nonlinear propagation effects in air, a drum
might not be the appropriate source. Wave propagation in air is
inherently nonlinear, but nonlinearity is negligible at familiar
acoustic amplitudes.
I am asking about this negligible effects.
Piano would be easy to estimate. But the best would be a specjal source.
Post by Ken Plotkin
It's definitely measurable at high amplitudes,
such as in noise from high thrust jet engines, and what's measured
fits expectations.
I understand that the frequency is changed with the distance. Am I right?
Post by Ken Plotkin
There is a ton of literature on this. Blackstock
and Hamilton's book is very thorough. You might look up work
published by Vic Sparrow and Kent Kee at Penn State for some recent
results on modeling nonlinear propagation of jet noise.
For me is enough your steatment.
Post by Ken Plotkin
FWIW, the physical mechanisms of acoustic waves in air and surface
waves in water are very different, so you need to be careful when
using one as a surrogate for the other.
Not in this case. In the light waves are also blue and red shifts depending
on the distance.
All waves are the same. So sound also.
S*
Ken Plotkin
2010-12-19 17:19:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 17:59:21 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
<***@wp.pl> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Not in this case. In the light waves are also blue and red shifts depending
on the distance.
All waves are the same. So sound also.
No, they are not the same.
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-19 17:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Plotkin
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 17:59:21 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Ken Plotkin
FWIW, the physical mechanisms of acoustic waves in air and surface
waves in water are very different, so you need to be careful when
using one as a surrogate for the other.
Not in this case. In the light waves are also blue and red shifts depending
on the distance.
All waves are the same. So sound also.
No, they are not the same.
Of course. A should wrote "May be that...
And only in the aspect of the frequency changes with distance of sounds
with the increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
It seams that it is possible.
S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-19 17:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html
The height of the wave is an amplitude.
Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
I did a quick search. You may wish to look up this paper:

Phys. Rev. Lett. 83, 4053–4056 (1999)
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube


Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-19 18:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html
The height of the wave is an amplitude.
Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
Phys. Rev. Lett. 83, 4053–4056 (1999)
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube
"Experiments are performed to demonstrate the generation and propagation of
acoustic solitary waves in an air-filled tube with a periodic array of
Helmholtz resonators connected axially. The purpose is to verify the
theoretical findings made so far that nonlinear acoustic waves do not evolve
into a shock but into a solitary wave propagating steadily without any
change of its smooth profile. To identify the solitary wave, the temporal
pressure profile is compared directly with the theoretical profile of the
solitary wave. Also checked are the relation between the peak sound pressure
of the solitary wave and its half-value width in time, and the relation
between the peak sound pressure and the deviation of propagation speed from
sound speed. The experimental results show good quantitative agreement with
the theory."

It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves the
amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be ths frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-19 19:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html
The height of the wave is an amplitude.
Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
Phys. Rev. Lett. 83, 4053–4056 (1999)
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube
< ...snip abstract... >
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves
the amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be ths frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
S*
Your subject says Soliton and you start your
discussion with solitons, thus one might conclude
you had an interest in solitons in air.

From the above one can conclude that if solitons can be
created then frequency dispersion exists. The question
then becomes one of the conditions needed to create
and observe the dispersion. Amplitude would be one of
those conditions.


Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-20 08:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html
The height of the wave is an amplitude.
Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
Phys. Rev. Lett. 83, 4053–4056 (1999)
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube
< ...snip abstract... >
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves
the amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be ths frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
S*
Your subject says Soliton and you start your
discussion with solitons, thus one might conclude
you had an interest in solitons in air.
You are right. I should write "Row of solitons"

In water such row is stretched or shortened if the amplitudes are
increasing/decreasing .
Post by Ron Capik
From the above one can conclude that if solitons can be
created then frequency dispersion exists. The question
then becomes one of the conditions needed to create
and observe the dispersion. Amplitude would be one of
those conditions.
The row of solitons where the next is weaker than the previous will be
detected as a sound with the frequence decreased with the distance.
For me all sounds are like the row of pulses. One pulse is like soliton.

Ken wrote: " If propagation is nonlinear"... If you start with a sine wave
of some frequency, then after a while it won't be a sine wave any more."

For me all real waves are nonlinear.
S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-20 16:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In water: "These "solitary" waves are stable, and can travel over very
large distances
without changing their shape, neither decreasing in amplitude nor breaking
as waves in water often do.
a.. The speed of the wave depends on the height of the wave.
b.. These waves don't obey superposition. When a taller (faster) wave
overtakes a shorter (slower) wave, they don't combine and add together.
Instead they appear to swap places with the faster wave appearing to jump
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/Solitons/solitons.html
The height of the wave is an amplitude.
Are speeds of the sound waves the amplitude dependent?
S*
Phys. Rev. Lett. 83, 4053–4056 (1999)
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube
< ...snip abstract... >
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves
the amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be ths frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
S*
Your subject says Soliton and you start your
discussion with solitons, thus one might conclude
you had an interest in solitons in air.
You are right. I should write "Row of solitons"
In water such row is stretched or shortened if the amplitudes are
increasing/decreasing .
< ...snip... >
S*
Solitons are a special case. An example of a
soliton in air would be a vortex; a smoke ring.
The speed of the vortex is amplitude dependent. However,
I don't believe that is what you are looking for.

A question for you: What is the difference between
a soliton and a pulse? Note that there are waves all
over the ocean but very few solitons.

Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-20 18:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
You are right. I should write "Row of solitons"
In water such row is stretched or shortened if the amplitudes are
increasing/decreasing .
< ...snip... >
Solitons are a special case. An example of a
soliton in air would be a vortex; a smoke ring.
The speed of the vortex is amplitude dependent. However,
I don't believe that is what you are looking for.
A question for you: What is the difference between
a soliton and a pulse? Note that there are waves all
over the ocean but very few solitons.
It is a problem of terminology. I do not know how to describe a real wave
if the wave length is the same but the amplitude is decreasing.
"Pulse + 3
▶SOUND/LIGHT/ELECTRICITY◀
[countable] an amount of sound, light, or electricity that continues for a
very short time".

So "pulse" is inadequate.
The better will be " beats" - "also pulse rate - the number of heart beats
per minute".

The row of beats if they are weakening with the time, but the pulse rate is
steady.

In air are the pressure beats. The sounds from strings are as the above.

How they behave with the distance.
S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-21 02:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
< ...snip... >
How they behave with the distance.
S*
With distance the amplitude [A] gets smaller.
I think you are also asking about dC/dA,
change in velocity [C] with a change in
amplitude [A]. That number is VERY small
for typical sound in air.

[I've never needed to do that calculation
in my work so don't know the answer.]

You may want to start by thinking about the
difference in the mean free path of air molecules
for the compressed and anti compressed part
of a sound wave.

I think you may be looking for other information
but there seems to be a language barrier and
maybe other technical problems.

If still interested, maybe try asking again in
different words could help?


Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-21 08:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
< ...snip... >
How they behave with the distance.
S*
With distance the amplitude [A] gets smaller.
I think you are also asking about dC/dA,
change in velocity [C] with a change in
amplitude [A]. That number is VERY small
for typical sound in air.
Too small to measure it in XXI century?
Post by Ron Capik
[I've never needed to do that calculation
in my work so don't know the answer.]
The analitical methods are a history. Measurements are better.
Post by Ron Capik
You may want to start by thinking about the
difference in the mean free path of air molecules
for the compressed and anti compressed part
of a sound wave.
I was asking if somebody has measured this VERY small effect.
Post by Ron Capik
I think you may be looking for other information
but there seems to be a language barrier and
maybe other technical problems.
You admitt that the effect is VERY small.
Sooner or late somebody measure and describe it "for typical sound in air".
Ken wrote: "Wave propagation in air is
inherently nonlinear, but nonlinearity is negligible at familiar
acoustic amplitudes. It's definitely measurable at high amplitudes,
such as in noise from high thrust jet engines, and what's measured
fits expectations. There is a ton of literature on this. Blackstock
and Hamilton's book is very thorough."

May be there is also about the "typical sound in air".
Post by Ron Capik
If still interested, maybe try asking again in
different words could help?
For me is enough: ""Wave propagation in air is inherently nonlinear, but
nonlinearity is negligible at familiar
acoustic amplitudes"

The same is with the light. The close (to us) stars do not exibit the
redshift.
To measure this VERY weak effect the distance must be huge or sharp
amplitude changes (or the both).

I hope that some of you menage with that.
S*
Ken Plotkin
2010-12-19 21:06:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:01:47 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
Post by Szczepan Bialek
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves the
amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be ths frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
You've been intermingling an amazing mix of very different things.

If propagation is nonlinear, it does not shift frequencies in the same
sense as a Doppler shift or the red shift of the cosmos. Each portion
of a nonlinear wave propagates at a different speed, dependent on its
local amplitude, so waveforms distort. If you start with a sine wave
of some frequency, then after a while it won't be a sine wave any
more. Not really a frequency shift, but a transfer of energy into
different frequencies - both higher and lower than the original.

Ken Plotkin
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-20 09:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Plotkin
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:01:47 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
Post by Szczepan Bialek
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves the
amplitude dependent?
If yes, than should be thy frequency shift for sounds with the
increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
You've been intermingling an amazing mix of very different things.
The first question is rather simple. And the answer also. Yes, it is the
amplitude dependent.

Next apply to situation where a sound becomes weaker (or stronger) with the
time.
The each pulse will be travel with the lower/higher speed. The frequency
will be changed with the distance.
I am asking if such effects are observed,
Post by Ken Plotkin
If propagation is nonlinear, it does not shift frequencies in the same
sense as a Doppler shift or the red shift of the cosmos.
Wiki wrote: "They initially interpreted these redshifts and blue shifts as
due solely to the Doppler effect, but later Hubble discovered a rough
correlation between the increasing redshifts and the increasing distance of
galaxies. Theorists almost immediately realized that these observations
could be explained by a different mechanism for producing redshifts"
Post by Ken Plotkin
Each portion
of a nonlinear wave propagates at a different speed, dependent on its
local amplitude, so waveforms distort. If you start with a sine wave
of some frequency, then after a while it won't be a sine wave any
more. Not really a frequency shift, but a transfer of energy into
different frequencies - both higher and lower than the original.
In the textbooks must be many simplifications. Also no difficult problems.
But in reality the sounds with the increasing/decreasing amplitudes exist.

What they behave with the distance?
S*
Jens Rodrigo
2010-12-20 19:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In the textbooks must be many simplifications. Also no difficult problems.
But in reality the sounds with the increasing/decreasing amplitudes exist.
What they behave with the distance?
How do sound waves in air behave with distance?

Inverse distance law 1/r for sound pressure:
Loading Image...

Sound pressure or acoustic pressure is the local pressure deviation
from the ambient atmospheric pressure caused by a sound wave.
Sound pressure level decreases by (?)6 dB per
doubling of distance from the source to 1/2 (50 %)
of the sound pressure initial value.
Sound pressure falls inversely proportional
to the distance 1/r from the sound source.
That is the 1/r law or the distance law.
Forget any change in frequency in open air.

Cheers Jens
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-21 09:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Post by Szczepan Bialek
In the textbooks must be many simplifications. Also no difficult problems.
But in reality the sounds with the increasing/decreasing amplitudes exist.
What they behave with the distance?
How do sound waves in air behave with distance?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DistanceLawE-Siart.gif
Sound pressure or acoustic pressure is the local pressure deviation
from the ambient atmospheric pressure caused by a sound wave.
Sound pressure level decreases by (?)6 dB per
doubling of distance from the source to 1/2 (50 %)
of the sound pressure initial value.
We are talking about waves where the WAVE SOURCE decreases the sound
pressure with the time. Such row of preassure beats next travel in such a
way that the each next beats have smaller speed than the previous. For such
row the frequency change is a fact. I encourage you to observe it.
Post by Jens Rodrigo
Sound pressure falls inversely proportional
to the distance 1/r from the sound source.
That is the 1/r law or the distance law.
Forget any change in frequency in open air.
If is true for rows of beats with the same amplitudes.
If the amplitudes of the beats are decreasing the "redshift" appears.
Try to observe it.
S*
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-21 17:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DistanceLawE-Siart.gif
Sound pressure or acoustic pressure is the local pressure deviation
from the ambient atmospheric pressure caused by a sound wave.
Sound pressure level decreases by (?)6 dB per
doubling of distance from the source to 1/2 (50 %)
of the sound pressure initial value.
We are talking about waves where the WAVE SOURCE decreases the sound
pressure with the time. Such row of preassure beats next travel in such a
way that the each next beats have smaller speed than the previous. For
such row the frequency change is a fact. I encourage you to observe it.
Here is a drawing: Loading Image...

Such waves have a name "Damped waves". The frequency fall down with the
distance.
S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-21 18:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Jens Rodrigo
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DistanceLawE-Siart.gif
Sound pressure or acoustic pressure is the local pressure deviation
from the ambient atmospheric pressure caused by a sound wave.
Sound pressure level decreases by (?)6 dB per
doubling of distance from the source to 1/2 (50 %)
of the sound pressure initial value.
We are talking about waves where the WAVE SOURCE decreases the sound
pressure with the time. Such row of preassure beats next travel in
such a way that the each next beats have smaller speed than the
previous. For such row the frequency change is a fact. I encourage you
to observe it.
Here is a drawing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ondes_amorties.jpg
Such waves have a name "Damped waves". The frequency fall down with the
distance.
S*
Close, but that damped wave is sitting in one place, much
like ringing a bell where it slowly gets quieter.
The wave you wish to describe is a propagating wave, one
that changes in time and space. There are ways to describe
them mathematically.

In time you should learn about Laplace transforms and the s plane
[complex plane] representations, a knowledge of Euler's identity
will also be needed.

Best wishes in your quest for knowledge.


Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-22 09:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Here is a drawing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ondes_amorties.jpg
Such waves have a name "Damped waves". The frequency fall down with the
distance.
S*
Close, but that damped wave is sitting in one place, much
like ringing a bell where it slowly gets quieter.
There are the row of 4 pulses. Each pulse has 6 beats (smaller with time).
Post by Ron Capik
The wave you wish to describe is a propagating wave, one
that changes in time and space. There are ways to describe
them mathematically.
For us is enough to see the drawing. We are interested of one pulse with 6
beats.
Post by Ron Capik
In time you should learn about Laplace transforms and the s plane
[complex plane] representations, a knowledge of Euler's identity
will also be needed.
Wiki wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_drift
"More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift in
his 1847 study of water waves."

All waves are: "Wave propagation in all media is inherently nonlinear, but
nonlinearity is negligible at familiar amplitudes" ( modification of Ken's
words).
Post by Ron Capik
Best wishes in your quest for knowledge.
It was at school times. Now I want to know how the Nature works.

It seams to me that Stokes had known everything what I want to know.

You should take the New Year Resolution that you do the measurement of the
"sound blue/red shifts".

The Helmholtz resonator in a free air would be the best. Sounds from it is
increasing/decreasing.

S*
Ron Capik
2010-12-22 15:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Here is a drawing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ondes_amorties.jpg
Such waves have a name "Damped waves". The frequency fall down with the
distance.
S*
Close, but that damped wave is sitting in one place, much
like ringing a bell where it slowly gets quieter.
There are the row of 4 pulses. Each pulse has 6 beats (smaller with time).
Post by Ron Capik
The wave you wish to describe is a propagating wave, one
that changes in time and space. There are ways to describe
them mathematically.
For us is enough to see the drawing. We are interested of one pulse with
6 beats.
Post by Ron Capik
In time you should learn about Laplace transforms and the s plane
[complex plane] representations, a knowledge of Euler's identity
will also be needed.
Wiki wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_drift
"More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average
Eulerian flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear
phenomenon is named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions
for this drift in his 1847 study of water waves."
All waves are: "Wave propagation in all media is inherently nonlinear,
but nonlinearity is negligible at familiar amplitudes" ( modification of
Ken's words).
Post by Ron Capik
Best wishes in your quest for knowledge.
It was at school times. Now I want to know how the Nature works.
It seams to me that Stokes had known everything what I want to know.
You should take the New Year Resolution that you do the measurement of
the "sound blue/red shifts".
The Helmholtz resonator in a free air would be the best. Sounds from it
is increasing/decreasing.
S*
What you miss in Stokes is that sound wave propagation
is not about fluid flow.

Be it math or Nature, one must study to learn.

I do not care about this experiment as you do, thus
I suggest that the measurement should be your New Year
Resolution.
[Also, I am retired and no longer have a laboratory
at my command.]

A Merry Christmas and Happy Winter Holidays to all.

Later...
Ron Capik
--
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-22 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Ron Capik
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Here is a drawing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ondes_amorties.jpg
Such waves have a name "Damped waves". The frequency fall down with the
distance.
S*
Close, but that damped wave is sitting in one place, much
like ringing a bell where it slowly gets quieter.
There are the row of 4 pulses. Each pulse has 6 beats (smaller with time).
Post by Ron Capik
The wave you wish to describe is a propagating wave, one
that changes in time and space. There are ways to describe
them mathematically.
For us is enough to see the drawing. We are interested of one pulse with
6 beats.
Post by Ron Capik
In time you should learn about Laplace transforms and the s plane
[complex plane] representations, a knowledge of Euler's identity
will also be needed.
Wiki wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes_drift
"More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average
Eulerian flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear
phenomenon is named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions
for this drift in his 1847 study of water waves."
All waves are: "Wave propagation in all media is inherently nonlinear,
but nonlinearity is negligible at familiar amplitudes" ( modification of
Ken's words).
Post by Ron Capik
Best wishes in your quest for knowledge.
It was at school times. Now I want to know how the Nature works.
It seams to me that Stokes had known everything what I want to know.
You should take the New Year Resolution that you do the measurement of
the "sound blue/red shifts".
The Helmholtz resonator in a free air would be the best. Sounds from it
is increasing/decreasing.
S*
What you miss in Stokes is that sound wave propagation
is not about fluid flow.
Be it math or Nature, one must study to learn.
I do not care about this experiment as you do, thus
I suggest that the measurement should be your New Year
Resolution.
[Also, I am retired and no longer have a laboratory
at my command.]
Me too.

Are here not retired which have a laboratory at command?
Post by Ron Capik
A Merry Christmas and Happy Winter Holidays to all.
Thanks.
S*
Angelo Campanella
2010-12-24 04:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Plotkin
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:01:47 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
Post by Szczepan Bialek
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves the
amplitude dependent?
There will be. But you first have to refine your definition of
"amplitude". Is it displacement? velocity? pressure? temperature?

My study of it explored the pressure aspect. In particular, when a sound
wave travels through air, it creates locales of high pressure and low
pressure, sometimes referred to as "peaks" and "troughs". The peaks are
places where the local instantaneous air pressure is at it greatest for the
wave, while the troughs are places where the air pressure is a minimum for
the same wave at another instant or another place. The acoustic difference
between these two locale types is infinitesimal for most common sound
levels. But when the acoustic pressure becomes comparable to the static
pressure there, the compression tat results from the higher pressure and the
rarefaction causes a half-cycle later will each alter the speed of sound
there. The compression is adiabatic, so the air heats up for these few
microseconds, increasing the sound speed accordingly.

What is observed is different in two frames of reference.

If you choose to ride astride a wave of amplitude greater than about 160
dB (in air) from the source out to a great distance, you will see the
pressure peak advance slowly ahead of the base of the valley behind. After a
few meters, the pressure maximum will abut the base of the valley ahead and
form a plane face, becoming a shock wave. I have not seen measurements of
the speed of this shock wave. Interesting theories can emerge! ANY ONE?

If you choose instead to remain near the source and to browse that
general vicinity, you will see no nonlinearity in the air at and near the
source. But starting at a foot or so out, the pressure waveform as seen by a
pressure microphone will show a bending forward of the crest and a trailing
of the valley. You will also feel a slight breeze, called "sonic wind",
away from the source. (This could be the alternative to a wave speed
uptick.) If the source is a horn-like transmitter, or even just a dipole
like a loudspeaker, you will find that breeze to exist only along and near
the projected beam. That wind will create a velocity profile that will
refract the sound beam outward (like a convex lens) and diminish the sound
beam intensity. That refraction effect, however is easily prevented by
blowing a stream of local air across that beam.

The distance where the wave shape nonlinearity (no longer being a sine
wave) is seen varies from about one to ten feet or more. I'm describing
measurements I made at 15 kHz in air; See JASA, January, 1980). These were
in free air (anechoic).

If the same sound energy was instead captive in a tube or pipe, the
sound level needed to generate the nonlinearity would be less and the
distance in the pipe they would propagate would be much, much greater. There
would also be a small reduction in static pressure at the source end of this
tube, an equivalent for the sonic wind.

I believe that sound pressure inside the pipes of trumpets and trombones
are shock waves by the time they get to the end bell for radiation into
space, possessing the rich harmonics we like so much. The shock formation
process unifies the wave shape so the the timbre is formed by the instrument
and not by the player. The pneumatic pulsing of the player's lips launch
pressure pulses to be sure, but as those waves propagate down the tubes,
they morph into perfect shock waves on heir own via this finite amplitude
effect.
Post by Ken Plotkin
If propagation is nonlinear, it does not shift frequencies in the same
sense as a Doppler shift or the red shift of the cosmos.
Do not think of "frequency" when within a wave. All that is there is in
it is a spatial distribution of pressure.

The first place that there is chance for "frequency" to exist as we
commonly understand (a single perodicity unique in frequency and phase) is
at the position of a stationary ear or microphone. There, the succession of
pressures that exist at that position - if you like; the train of waves
presents it's own pressure, parcel after parcel... The tempo of these
presentations synthesizes the "frequencies". From this point of view, it is
easy to contemplate "Doppler" as being the result of the ear moving around
or the source moving around.......
Post by Ken Plotkin
Each portion
of a nonlinear wave propagates at a different speed, dependent on its
local amplitude, so waveforms distort. If you start with a sine wave
of some frequency, then after a while it won't be a sine wave any
more. Not really a frequency shift, but a transfer of energy into
different frequencies - both higher and lower than the original.
That sort of says it, too.

Ange
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-24 08:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Ken Plotkin
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:01:47 +0100, "Szczepan Bialek"
Post by Szczepan Bialek
It is too sophisticated. My question was: "Are speeds of the sound waves the
amplitude dependent?
There will be. But you first have to refine your definition of
"amplitude". Is it displacement? velocity? pressure? temperature?
Amplitude of pressure: " locales of high pressure and low
pressure, sometimes referred to as "peaks" and "troughs". "
Post by Angelo Campanella
My study of it explored the pressure aspect. In particular, when a
sound wave travels through air, it creates locales of high pressure and
low pressure, sometimes referred to as "peaks" and "troughs". The peaks
are places where the local instantaneous air pressure is at it greatest
for the wave, while the troughs are places where the air pressure is a
minimum for the same wave at another instant or another place. The
acoustic difference between these two locale types is infinitesimal for
most common sound levels. But when the acoustic pressure becomes
comparable to the static pressure there, the compression tat results from
the higher pressure and the rarefaction causes a half-cycle later will
each alter the speed of sound there. The compression is adiabatic, so the
air heats up for these few microseconds, increasing the sound speed
accordingly.
L. Prandtl wrote that no adiabatic because is radiation. In textbooks are
simplifications. In reality no place for them.
Post by Angelo Campanella
What is observed is different in two frames of reference.
If you choose to ride astride a wave of amplitude greater than about
160 dB (in air) from the source out to a great distance, you will see the
pressure peak advance slowly ahead of the base of the valley behind. After
a few meters, the pressure maximum will abut the base of the valley ahead
and form a plane face, becoming a shock wave. I have not seen measurements
of the speed of this shock wave. Interesting theories can emerge! ANY ONE?
If you choose instead to remain near the source and to browse that
general vicinity, you will see no nonlinearity in the air at and near the
source. But starting at a foot or so out, the pressure waveform as seen by
a pressure microphone will show a bending forward of the crest and a
trailing of the valley. You will also feel a slight breeze, called "sonic
wind", away from the source.
Is it the Stokes drift?
Ink printers use it.
Post by Angelo Campanella
(This could be the alternative to a wave speed uptick.) If the source is a
horn-like transmitter, or even just a dipole like a loudspeaker, you will
find that breeze to exist only along and near the projected beam. That wind
will create a velocity profile that will refract the sound beam outward
(like a convex lens) and diminish the sound beam intensity. That refraction
effect, however is easily prevented by blowing a stream of local air across
that beam.
The distance where the wave shape nonlinearity (no longer being a sine
wave) is seen varies from about one to ten feet or more. I'm describing
measurements I made at 15 kHz in air; See JASA, January, 1980). These were
in free air (anechoic).
If the same sound energy was instead captive in a tube or pipe, the
sound level needed to generate the nonlinearity would be less and the
distance in the pipe they would propagate would be much, much greater.
There would also be a small reduction in static pressure at the source end
of this tube, an equivalent for the sonic wind.
I believe that sound pressure inside the pipes of trumpets and
trombones are shock waves by the time they get to the end bell for
radiation into space, possessing the rich harmonics we like so much. The
shock formation process unifies the wave shape so the the timbre is formed
by the instrument and not by the player. The pneumatic pulsing of the
player's lips launch pressure pulses to be sure, but as those waves
propagate down the tubes, they morph into perfect shock waves on heir own
via this finite amplitude effect.
Post by Ken Plotkin
If propagation is nonlinear, it does not shift frequencies in the same
sense as a Doppler shift or the red shift of the cosmos.
Do not think of "frequency" when within a wave. All that is there is in
it is a spatial distribution of pressure.
The first place that there is chance for "frequency" to exist as we
commonly understand (a single perodicity unique in frequency and phase) is
at the position of a stationary ear or microphone. There, the succession
of pressures that exist at that position - if you like; the train of waves
presents it's own pressure, parcel after parcel... The tempo of these
presentations synthesizes the "frequencies".
So my question is if such frequency is distance dependent (for the damped
waves).
Post by Angelo Campanella
From this point of view, it is easy to contemplate "Doppler" as being the
result of the ear moving around or the source moving around.......
Or the redshift as the result of stretching the damped waves during
propagation.
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Ken Plotkin
Each portion
of a nonlinear wave propagates at a different speed, dependent on its
local amplitude,
I am asking how behave the damped wave with the distance.
S*
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Ken Plotkin
so waveforms distort. If you start with a sine wave
of some frequency, then after a while it won't be a sine wave any
more. Not really a frequency shift, but a transfer of energy into
different frequencies - both higher and lower than the original.
That sort of says it, too.
Ange
Angelo Campanella
2010-12-24 20:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
My study of it explored the pressure aspect. In particular, when a
sound wave travels through air, it creates locales of high pressure and
low pressure, sometimes referred to as "peaks" and "troughs". The peaks
are places where the local instantaneous air pressure is at it greatest
for the wave, while the troughs are places where the air pressure is a
minimum for the same wave at another instant or another place. The
acoustic difference between these two locale types is infinitesimal for
most common sound levels. But when the acoustic pressure becomes
comparable to the static pressure there, the compression tat results from
the higher pressure and the rarefaction causes a half-cycle later will
each alter the speed of sound there. The compression is adiabatic, so the
air heats up for these few microseconds, increasing the sound speed
accordingly.
L. Prandtl wrote that no adiabatic because is radiation. In textbooks are
simplifications. In reality no place for them.
It depends on the time of compression or rarefaction. For sound waves of
frequency less than about 20 Hz in air, there will be irradiative cooling,
and the compressions are considered isothermal. But for all higher
frequencies, there is insufficient time for radiation to be significant, so
the compressions are all adiabatic, the speed increases, and slows in
rarefactions..
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
If you choose instead to remain near the source and to browse that
general vicinity, you will see no nonlinearity in the air at and near the
source. But starting at a foot or so out, the pressure waveform as seen
by a pressure microphone will show a bending forward of the crest and a
trailing of the valley. You will also feel a slight breeze, called
"sonic wind", away from the source.
Is it the Stokes drift?
Ink printers use it.
It is nearly the same as Stokes drift, but not identical. In sound
waves, there is only forward and backward motion. Apparently, the
accelerated displacement in the forward direction is greater due to the
adiabatic pressure increase than the decelerated displacement to the rear
due to the adiabatic rarefaction.
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
The first place that there is chance for "frequency" to exist as we
commonly understand (a single periodicity unique in frequency and phase)
is at the position of a stationary ear or microphone. There, the
succession of pressures that exist at that position - if you like; the
train of waves presents it's own pressure, parcel after parcel... The
tempo of these presentations synthesizes the "frequencies".
So my question is if such frequency is distance dependent (for the damped
waves).
No. There is no change of frequency with distance. The waves do NOT get
"tired". The only unusual change with distance is the amount of nonlinearity
that is induced by large amplitudes. The nonlinear wave can also be thought
of as containing harmonics of varying amplitude with distance. There is the
matter, yet unsettled, of harmonic content at long distances. We know the
harmonics are generated in the closer distances. My tests and test space did
not permit long distance studies. Do the harmonics grow, then remain stable
(except for inverse square law divergence)? Do they reach a maximum and then
diminish due only to air absorption? Studies could be made for
two-dimensional divergence (cylindrical waves) and one-dimensional (tubes),
but have not been reported to my knowledge.
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
From this point of view, it is easy to contemplate "Doppler" as being the
result of the ear moving around or the source moving around.......
Or the redshift as the result of stretching the damped waves during
propagation.
As mentioned, frequency does not change within a medium. If the medium
moves carrying the wave with it, the frequency observed by a stationary
observer will change. Red shift includes the behavior of the observer.
Post by Szczepan Bialek
I am asking how behave the damped wave with the distance.
S*
The wave will reduce in amplitude according to whether the divergence is
3-D (6dB/distance doubled), 2D (3dB/DD) or 1D (tubes, 0dB/DD, only
absorption attenuation). Absorption attenuation also occurs in 3D, and 2D
divergence. As I mentioned above, the rise and fall of the nonlinearity
(which also means harmonics) for very intense sound is still not completely
researched out. Lord Rayleigh died too soon.

Ange
Szczepan Bialek
2010-12-25 11:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
My study of it explored the pressure aspect. In particular, when a
sound wave travels through air, it creates locales of high pressure and
low pressure, sometimes referred to as "peaks" and "troughs". The peaks
are places where the local instantaneous air pressure is at it greatest
for the wave, while the troughs are places where the air pressure is a
minimum for the same wave at another instant or another place. The
acoustic difference between these two locale types is infinitesimal for
most common sound levels. But when the acoustic pressure becomes
comparable to the static pressure there, the compression tat results
from the higher pressure and the rarefaction causes a half-cycle later
will each alter the speed of sound there. The compression is adiabatic,
so the air heats up for these few microseconds, increasing the sound
speed accordingly.
L. Prandtl wrote that no adiabatic because is radiation. In textbooks are
simplifications. In reality no place for them.
It depends on the time of compression or rarefaction. For sound waves of
frequency less than about 20 Hz in air, there will be irradiative cooling,
and the compressions are considered isothermal. But for all higher
frequencies, there is insufficient time for radiation to be significant,
so the compressions are all adiabatic, the speed increases, and slows in
rarefactions..
Simplifications are necessary to do equations.
At each compression is the energy loss by radiation.
The damped wave becomes less damped with the distance.
So the "redshift" will be also less.
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
If you choose instead to remain near the source and to browse that
general vicinity, you will see no nonlinearity in the air at and near
the source. But starting at a foot or so out, the pressure waveform as
seen by a pressure microphone will show a bending forward of the crest
and a trailing of the valley. You will also feel a slight breeze,
called "sonic wind", away from the source.
Is it the Stokes drift?
Ink printers use it.
It is nearly the same as Stokes drift, but not identical. In sound
waves, there is only forward and backward motion. Apparently, the
accelerated displacement in the forward direction is greater due to the
adiabatic pressure increase than the decelerated displacement to the rear
due to the adiabatic rarefaction.
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
The first place that there is chance for "frequency" to exist as we
commonly understand (a single periodicity unique in frequency and phase)
is at the position of a stationary ear or microphone. There, the
succession of pressures that exist at that position - if you like; the
train of waves presents it's own pressure, parcel after parcel... The
tempo of these presentations synthesizes the "frequencies".
So my question is if such frequency is distance dependent (for the damped
waves).
No. There is no change of frequency with distance.
Quite opposite. In the damped wave the parcels have decreasing amplitudes.
Why such parcels must travel with the same speed?
If they have right to travel with they own speed than "The tempo of these
presentations synthesizes the "frequencies".
Post by Angelo Campanella
The waves do NOT get "tired". The only unusual change with distance is the
amount of nonlinearity that is induced by large amplitudes. The nonlinear
wave can also be thought of as containing harmonics of varying amplitude
with distance. There is the matter, yet unsettled, of harmonic content at
long distances. We know the harmonics are generated in the closer
distances. My tests and test space did not permit long distance studies. Do
the harmonics grow, then remain stable (except for inverse square law
divergence)? Do they reach a maximum and then diminish due only to air
absorption?
Natural sound sources with resonators send increasing/decreasing amplitudes.
It is more difficult to analise.
Post by Angelo Campanella
Studies could be made for two-dimensional divergence (cylindrical waves)
and one-dimensional (tubes), but have not been reported to my knowledge.
Experimental Demonstration of Generation and Propagation of Acoustic
Solitary Waves in an Air-Filled Tube
"Experiments are performed to demonstrate the generation and propagation of
acoustic solitary waves in an air-filled tube with a periodic array of
Helmholtz resonators connected axially. The purpose is to verify the
theoretical findings made so far that nonlinear acoustic waves do not evolve
into a shock but into a solitary wave propagating steadily without any
change of its smooth profile. To identify the solitary wave, the temporal
pressure profile is compared directly with the theoretical profile of the
solitary wave. Also checked are the relation between the peak sound pressure
of the solitary wave and its half-value width in time, and the relation
between the peak sound pressure and the deviation of propagation speed from
sound speed. The experimental results show good quantitative agreement with
the theory."
Post by Angelo Campanella
Post by Szczepan Bialek
Post by Angelo Campanella
From this point of view, it is easy to contemplate "Doppler" as being
the result of the ear moving around or the source moving around.......
Or the redshift as the result of stretching the damped waves during
propagation.
As mentioned, frequency does not change within a medium. If the medium
moves carrying the wave with it, the frequency observed by a stationary
observer will change. Red shift includes the behavior of the observer.
Post by Szczepan Bialek
I am asking how behave the damped wave with the distance.
S*
The wave will reduce in amplitude according to whether the divergence
is 3-D (6dB/distance doubled), 2D (3dB/DD) or 1D (tubes, 0dB/DD, only
absorption attenuation). Absorption attenuation also occurs in 3D, and 2D
divergence. As I mentioned above, the rise and fall of the nonlinearity
(which also means harmonics) for very intense sound is still not
completely researched out. Lord Rayleigh died too soon.
You are live.
S*

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