Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.

[Helmut Wabnig]

Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.


A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Those two attributes are contraproductive:
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-

Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.



Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent. For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.

A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.

I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.

Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.

No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.

Watch:

w.

[Charlie]

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.
A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-
Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.
Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent. For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.
A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.
I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.
http://youtu.be/VZDcVfclHpw
w.

I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.

Thank you

Charlie

[Helmut Wabnig]

Post by Charlie

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.
A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-
Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.
Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent. For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.
A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.
I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.
http://youtu.be/VZDcVfclHpw
w.

I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

The bass note wolfs are not that good audible.
Use headphones and watch the C and C# on the A string.

The other one is clearly audible on the g string.

If you can't hear, again use headphones.

If you still can't hear,
you should not care for music or related activities.


w.

[Steve Daniels]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 17:29:46 +0100, against all advice, something

Post by Helmut Wabnig
If you still can't hear,
you should not care for music or related activities.

Flasche.

[Charlie]

if you still can't hear,

Post by Helmut Wabnig
you should not care for music or related activities.
w.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Helmust,

I'm not sure hearing like you do is an asset. I've been playing for
almost 40 yrs., classically. I play well and can hear well too. Once
my guitar is tuned, there it is. I'm lucky, I suppose, to have a
world class instrument that carries well. Poor technique turns into
poor sound. I'm not sure how it is with steel stringed instruments,
but that's definitely the case with nylon strings. The way you played
your guitar on that video you posted was not very well: lousy
technique. I'm pressuming you were TRYING to make the instrument
sound bad for purposes of demonstration.. I watched, and, to change
the sound, I would have changed the way I played that instrument. If
you were trying to make wolf tones, you suceeded. That guitar did not
HAVE to sound that way. It's a matter of technique.

At least that's my take on it.

Charlie

[Twibil]

I'm not sure hearing like you do is an asset.  I've been playing for
almost 40 yrs., classically.  I play well and can hear well too.  Once
my guitar is tuned, there it is.  I'm lucky, I suppose,  to have a
world class instrument that carries well.  Poor technique turns into
poor sound.   I'm not sure how it is with steel stringed instruments,
but that's definitely the case with nylon strings.  The way you played
your guitar on that video you posted was not very well: lousy
technique.  I'm pressuming you were TRYING to make the instrument
sound bad for purposes of demonstration..  I watched, and, to change
the sound, I would have changed the way I played that instrument.  If
you were trying to make wolf tones, you suceeded.  That guitar did not
HAVE to sound that way.  It's a matter of technique.
At least that's my take on it.
Charlie

<Insert polite golf clap.>

[RichL]

Post by Helmut Wabnig

Post by Charlie

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.
A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-
Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.
Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent. For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.
A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.
I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.
http://youtu.be/VZDcVfclHpw
w.

I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

The bass note wolfs are not that good audible.
Use headphones and watch the C and C# on the A string.
The other one is clearly audible on the g string.
If you can't hear, again use headphones.
If you still can't hear,
you should not care for music or related activities.

Inability to answer the question asked noted.

To Charlie: You might find this helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_tone

[dsi1]

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.

What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.

Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.

The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

[Mike Brown]

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.

The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.

MJRB

[dsi1]

Post by Mike Brown

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut
strings. I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set
of these skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!"
I guess the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles
with a D'Addario EXP bass set.

OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

[Tony Done]

Post by Mike Brown

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut strings.
I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set of these
skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!" I guess
the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles with a
D'Addario EXP bass set.
OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

I'm using guitar strings in my uke (Kurt Mangan high tension) because they
are cheap, readily available and have the low G. I would try Nylgut guitar
strings (or uke with low G) if I could get them locally, but I'm not sure it
is worth the effort of buying them by mail order.

Tony D

[dsi1]

Post by Tony Done
I'm using guitar strings in my uke (Kurt Mangan high tension) because
they are cheap, readily available and have the low G. I would try Nylgut
guitar strings (or uke with low G) if I could get them locally, but I'm
not sure it is worth the effort of buying them by mail order.
Tony D

It depends on your location. We're in the middle of nowhere but there's
a lot of uke players here so Nylgut uke strings are easy to get. The
Nylgut guitar strings however, not so easy. I usually get my strings
through the internet strings sellers. My last set I got on eBay. It was
$10 a set, postage included. It was a deal.

[Tony Done]

Post by Tony Done
I'm using guitar strings in my uke (Kurt Mangan high tension) because
they are cheap, readily available and have the low G. I would try Nylgut
guitar strings (or uke with low G) if I could get them locally, but I'm
not sure it is worth the effort of buying them by mail order.
Tony D

It depends on your location. We're in the middle of nowhere but there's a
lot of uke players here so Nylgut uke strings are easy to get. The Nylgut
guitar strings however, not so easy. I usually get my strings through the
internet strings sellers. My last set I got on eBay. It was $10 a set,
postage included. It was a deal.

I just checked at Just Strings, they do several different low G sets. The
higher tension tenor set might be best on the (concert reso), but better to
stick the concert set on the Kala. <sigh> Oh, the agonies of choice.

I could do a bulk order with some electric and acoustic guitar strings.

Tony D

[Mike Brown]

Post by Tony Done

Post by Tony Done
I'm using guitar strings in my uke (Kurt Mangan high tension) because
they are cheap, readily available and have the low G. I would try Nylgut
guitar strings (or uke with low G) if I could get them locally, but I'm
not sure it is worth the effort of buying them by mail order.
Tony D

It depends on your location. We're in the middle of nowhere but there's a
lot of uke players here so Nylgut uke strings are easy to get. The Nylgut
guitar strings however, not so easy. I usually get my strings through the
internet strings sellers. My last set I got on eBay. It was $10 a set,
postage included. It was a deal.

I just checked at Just Strings, they do several different low G sets. The
higher tension tenor set might be best on the (concert reso), but better to
stick the concert set on the Kala. <sigh> Oh, the agonies of choice.
I could do a bulk order with some electric and acoustic guitar strings.
Tony D

I bulk order all my strings except the Aquilas from John Pearse.

MJRB

[jimmy]

Post by dsi1

Post by Mike Brown

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut
strings. I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set
of these skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!"
I guess the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles
with a D'Addario EXP bass set.
OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

I have a uke question for ya. Couple weeks ago I picked up a sweet
old mohagany harmony. I had a spare set of classical guitar strings
at home so I used them. For G C E A tuning I used 1st, 3rd, 2nd &
1st strings. It works and sounds great but, I'm wondering if the
tension may be a higher than it should be because of not using
"official" uke strings, particularly for G & A.

thanks

[Tony Done]

Post by jimmy

Post by dsi1

Post by Mike Brown

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut
strings. I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set
of these skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!"
I guess the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles
with a D'Addario EXP bass set.
OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

I have a uke question for ya. Couple weeks ago I picked up a sweet
old mohagany harmony. I had a spare set of classical guitar strings
at home so I used them. For G C E A tuning I used 1st, 3rd, 2nd &
1st strings. It works and sounds great but, I'm wondering if the
tension may be a higher than it should be because of not using
"official" uke strings, particularly for G & A.
thanks

I use high tension classical guitar strings, with the 4th string as a low G
on two concert ukes tuned to A. A very quick check at Just Strings shows
that guitar strings are about the same weight as equivalent uke strings, so
they shouldn't be a problem. A tuning on a soprano uke is very slack
compared with E tuning on a classical guitar, A tuning on a uke is still
lower than guitar, and A tuning on a tenor is about the same as guitar, for
the same string weights.

Tony D

[LA]

Post by Tony Done

Post by dsi1

Post by dsi1

I watched your video.  I'm not sure what  / when a wolf tone happens
in your video.  I don't hear anything bad.  I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one.  Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before,  my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut
strings. I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set
of these skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!"
I guess the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles
with a D'Addario EXP bass set.
OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

I have a uke question for ya.  Couple weeks ago I picked up a sweet
old mohagany harmony.  I had a spare set of classical guitar strings
at home so I used them.  For G C E A tuning I used 1st, 3rd,  2nd &
1st strings.  It works and sounds great but, I'm wondering if the
tension may be a higher than it should be because of not using
"official" uke strings, particularly for G & A.
thanks

I use high tension classical guitar strings, with the 4th string as a low G
on two concert ukes tuned to A. A very quick check at Just Strings shows
that guitar strings are about the same weight as equivalent uke strings, so
they shouldn't be a problem. A tuning on a soprano uke is very slack
compared with E tuning on a classical guitar, A tuning on a uke is still
lower than guitar, and A tuning on a tenor is about the same as guitar, for
the same string weights.
Tony D

My wife just revealed to me one of her inner most secrets..........she
had a ukulele when she was eleven.

She even went and fished through a box of her old stuff and found
'Smith's 200 Songs for Ukulele' original copyright 1924 this one is
the 1961 edition.

Has the little chord graphs based on A D F# B tuning.

LA

[dsi1]

Post by jimmy

Post by dsi1

Post by Mike Brown

Post by dsi1

Post by Charlie
I watched your video. I'm not sure what / when a wolf tone happens
in your video. I don't hear anything bad. I know they exist, just
not sure I have ever heard one. Please describe what it is.
Thank you
Charlie

He means notes on the guitar that interacts with the built-in resonant
frequencies of the instrument. I don't care much for the term "wolf
tones." I just call 'em resonant points.
What the OP is saying is that these points rob the notes of their
sustain while beefing up the initial attack of the notes. The notes seem
to pop when you play them and you'll feel the body of the guitar react
when you hit one of these.
Don't count on hearing these notes while listening to a recording on
YouTube. You're not going to be able feel the guitar body vibrate on
your speakers, which probably has resonant peaks of their own.
The 3D chart at the end shows what some players, including me, feel is a
problem with the nylon string guitar - the design favors the bass
strings too much.

As I've posted before, my old classical came back to life with a set of
Aquila Alabastro Superior Tension strings.
The trebles are better than they've ever sounded before, and the whole
guitar has much more punch.
MJRB

I noticed that the uke players on this rock use the Aguila Nylgut
strings. I sez to myself "WTF?" After many months of this, I try a set
of these skinny white strings. I sez to myself "WTF - this works great!"
I guess the uke players like punchy. My preferred set is Nylgut trebles
with a D'Addario EXP bass set.
OTOH, the Nylgut strings ain't for everybody. Some folks won't like the
added attack and brightness and the thin gauge feel. Why they call it
synthetic gut strings is beyond me - it doesn't sound anything like gut
strings.

I have a uke question for ya. Couple weeks ago I picked up a sweet
old mohagany harmony. I had a spare set of classical guitar strings
at home so I used them. For G C E A tuning I used 1st, 3rd, 2nd&
1st strings. It works and sounds great but, I'm wondering if the
tension may be a higher than it should be because of not using
"official" uke strings, particularly for G& A.
thanks

I'm no expert on strings but simply put, the string tension is
determined by the scale length, and string diameter. If you feel the
string is too tight, you should install a slightly thinner string. If
you need more tension, you'll have to get a thicker or wound string. You
have to be careful about using too heavy a string and putting too much
tension on the neck.

If you have a micrometer, you could measure the diameter of the string
and find info on recommended gauges for your scale length. The truth is
that all the monofiliament strings are pretty much fishing line - well
that's the rumor anyway. :-)

[Steve Hawkins]

Helmut Wabnig <***@.- --- -. DOTat> wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

<snip>

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.

First, stop cross-posting. Second, can you tell me what the secret spices
are in Kentucky Fried Chicken?

Steve Hawkins

[Helmut Wabnig]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 16:10:28 GMT, Steve Hawkins

Post by Steve Hawkins
<snip>

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.

First, stop cross-posting. Second, can you tell me what the secret spices
are in Kentucky Fried Chicken?
Steve Hawkins

Why should I stop cross posting?

w.

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by Helmut Wabnig
On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 16:10:28 GMT, Steve Hawkins

Post by Steve Hawkins
<snip>

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.

First, stop cross-posting. Second, can you tell me what the secret spices
are in Kentucky Fried Chicken?
Steve Hawkins

Why should I stop cross posting?
w.

Because it's bad manners, and you're irritating.

HTH

Pete (crossposted through neccessity, I'm afraid)

[Lawrence Logic]

Post by p***@yahoo.com

Post by Helmut Wabnig
On Tue, 01 Mar 2011 16:10:28 GMT, Steve Hawkins

Post by Steve Hawkins
<snip>

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.

First, stop cross-posting. Second, can you tell me what the secret spices
are in Kentucky Fried Chicken?
Steve Hawkins

Why should I stop cross posting?
w.

Because it's bad manners, and you're irritating.
HTH

I'm not sure why you'd consider it bad manners. If the "related" groups
were pro-wrestling, baseball, politics and poetry, I'd agree with you. The
topic is relevant to the cross-posted groups, however, even if you don't
like the actual content.

To post the same message individually to each of the groups would actually
be bad manners. If people couldn't see the replies from the other groups,
they may end up duplicating someone else's effort. By reading the replies
in a cross-posted thread, they may see that their intended response has
already been aired by someone else.

Helmut may irritate you, and he doesn't necessarily ring my bells either,
but his heart seems to be in the right place and his posting method is
appropriate.

HTH

[dsi1]

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure why you'd consider it bad manners. If the "related" groups
were pro-wrestling, baseball, politics and poetry, I'd agree with you. The
topic is relevant to the cross-posted groups, however, even if you don't
like the actual content.
To post the same message individually to each of the groups would actually
be bad manners. If people couldn't see the replies from the other groups,
they may end up duplicating someone else's effort. By reading the replies
in a cross-posted thread, they may see that their intended response has
already been aired by someone else.
Helmut may irritate you, and he doesn't necessarily ring my bells either,
but his heart seems to be in the right place and his posting method is
appropriate.
HTH

A method of graphing the response of a guitar is a good and honorable
goal. I don't see anybody bitching about graphing the frequency response
of audio equipment or loudspeakers. It might make more sense to attach a
driver to top and graph the response of the top - or maybe it wouldn't.
I'd rather just use my ears since ultimately, the guitar must please them.

In my awesome opinion, there's nothing wrong with cross-posting to
guitar or related groups. Some servers limit it and I don't do it myself
much but I guess that's between the poster and their Usenet servers.
OTOH, it don't matter much what my opinion is on how other people should
behave cause after all, it's Usenet baby!

[Lawrence Logic]

Post by dsi1

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure why you'd consider it bad manners. If the "related" groups
were pro-wrestling, baseball, politics and poetry, I'd agree with you.
The
topic is relevant to the cross-posted groups, however, even if you don't
like the actual content.
To post the same message individually to each of the groups would actually
be bad manners. If people couldn't see the replies from the other groups,
they may end up duplicating someone else's effort. By reading the replies
in a cross-posted thread, they may see that their intended response has
already been aired by someone else.
Helmut may irritate you, and he doesn't necessarily ring my bells either,
but his heart seems to be in the right place and his posting method is
appropriate.
HTH

A method of graphing the response of a guitar is a good and honorable
goal. I don't see anybody bitching about graphing the frequency response
of audio equipment or loudspeakers. It might make more sense to attach a
driver to top and graph the response of the top - or maybe it wouldn't.
I'd rather just use my ears since ultimately, the guitar must please them.
In my awesome opinion, there's nothing wrong with cross-posting to guitar
or related groups. Some servers limit it and I don't do it myself much but
I guess that's between the poster and their Usenet servers. OTOH, it don't
matter much what my opinion is on how other people should behave cause
after all, it's Usenet baby!

Your opinion is indeed awesome. It aligns with mine, and that's good enough
for me!

[dsi1]

Post by Lawrence Logic

Post by dsi1

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure why you'd consider it bad manners. If the "related" groups
were pro-wrestling, baseball, politics and poetry, I'd agree with you.
The
topic is relevant to the cross-posted groups, however, even if you don't
like the actual content.
To post the same message individually to each of the groups would actually
be bad manners. If people couldn't see the replies from the other groups,
they may end up duplicating someone else's effort. By reading the replies
in a cross-posted thread, they may see that their intended response has
already been aired by someone else.
Helmut may irritate you, and he doesn't necessarily ring my bells either,
but his heart seems to be in the right place and his posting method is
appropriate.
HTH

A method of graphing the response of a guitar is a good and honorable
goal. I don't see anybody bitching about graphing the frequency response
of audio equipment or loudspeakers. It might make more sense to attach a
driver to top and graph the response of the top - or maybe it wouldn't.
I'd rather just use my ears since ultimately, the guitar must please them.
In my awesome opinion, there's nothing wrong with cross-posting to guitar
or related groups. Some servers limit it and I don't do it myself much but
I guess that's between the poster and their Usenet servers. OTOH, it don't
matter much what my opinion is on how other people should behave cause
after all, it's Usenet baby!

Your opinion is indeed awesome. It aligns with mine, and that's good enough
for me!

It's almost too much freakin' awesomeness for one group!

[Lawrence Logic]

Post by dsi1

Post by Lawrence Logic

Post by dsi1

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure why you'd consider it bad manners. If the "related" groups
were pro-wrestling, baseball, politics and poetry, I'd agree with you.
The
topic is relevant to the cross-posted groups, however, even if you don't
like the actual content.
To post the same message individually to each of the groups would actually
be bad manners. If people couldn't see the replies from the other groups,
they may end up duplicating someone else's effort. By reading the replies
in a cross-posted thread, they may see that their intended response has
already been aired by someone else.
Helmut may irritate you, and he doesn't necessarily ring my bells either,
but his heart seems to be in the right place and his posting method is
appropriate.
HTH

A method of graphing the response of a guitar is a good and honorable
goal. I don't see anybody bitching about graphing the frequency response
of audio equipment or loudspeakers. It might make more sense to attach a
driver to top and graph the response of the top - or maybe it wouldn't.
I'd rather just use my ears since ultimately, the guitar must please them.
In my awesome opinion, there's nothing wrong with cross-posting to guitar
or related groups. Some servers limit it and I don't do it myself much but
I guess that's between the poster and their Usenet servers. OTOH, it don't
matter much what my opinion is on how other people should behave cause
after all, it's Usenet baby!

Your opinion is indeed awesome. It aligns with mine, and that's good enough
for me!

It's almost too much freakin' awesomeness for one group!

I'm not sure which group you're posting from but if you give my nipples a
tweek right now, then I'm yours forever!

[Twibil]

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure which group you're posting from but if you give my nipples a
tweek right now, then I'm yours forever!

I'm not certain where he's posting from either, but as for you; say
hello to all the players on Hollywood Boulevard for us, 'K?

~Pete

[dsi1]

Post by Lawrence Logic
I'm not sure which group you're posting from but if you give my nipples a
tweek right now, then I'm yours forever!

I'd rather not say but it's from a pretty milquetoast group of fellas
whose fangers get all achy and stuff with skin sloughing off when
touched by strings of steel. BTW fine nipples, especially that extra
small one.

[Squier]

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.
A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-
Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.
Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'player independent'.
I can affect sustain as a player by using vibrato technique
on a note or I can immediately mute that note by applying a palm
mute technique - a player can greatly affect how a note sustains
by varying pick attack, vibrato technique and muting. You can even
very lightly touch the vibrating string to effect a different note decay.
So it seems a player can greatly affect how a note sustains and in
all phases of that vibration - from original attack on to ending decay.

If you are using machinery to affect some sort of consistent measurement
then it is not indicative of how people actually can play guitars.
But maybe this is just my own humble opinion and will be scoffed at
and refuted by more scentific minds such as yourself. If this is the
case, then please excuse my ignorance on this issue about vibration
and note sustain. It seems not to mention this measurement as
'player independent' is to create data that is not indicative of reality
and is simply created to offer a skewed set of data points.
If you leave out one of the most important variables in actual
practice of guitar playing - then the rest of the data is merely
a leap of faith that only non-players would be willing to take.

Again - that's my take on it. And I'm stickin' with that story.

Post by Helmut Wabnig
For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.
A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.
I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.
http://youtu.be/VZDcVfclHpw
w.

[Sac Dave]

Post by Helmut Wabnig
Nylon Guitar Sustain, Loudness and Wolf Tones.
A guitar should have a loud and long lasting tone.
Loudness kills sustain.
When more energy is radiated as sound, it will last shorter-
Where those criteria collide, WOLF tones appear.
Loudness depends on the player and cannot be easily normalized,
but sustain can be objectively measured, because it is player
independent. For practical reasons I suggest measuring the
peak loudness of a played tone and measure the time it takes
to decay at 1/4 of the original amplitude. That corresponds
to a -20dB loudness reduction. The time is in the range
of seconds for a nylon guitar.
A complete sustain map, or chart, or diagram, reveals all
acoustically bad spots of an instrument. Especially hidden
or apparent Wolfs can be visualized. The procedure is
straightforward and simple, although somewhat technical,
because good computer skills are required when using
a computer as measurement device.
I consider the sustain map as the ultimate proof of a luthier's.
Combined with the intonation measurement that method
equals a thorough X-ray plus CT plus MRT of a guitar.
Master instrument makers should present their intonation diagram
and their sustain diagram to customers.
No incense magic smoke, no Voodoo, but open honesty.
http://youtu.be/VZDcVfclHpw
w.

I think the problem is you suffer from a condition known as OTUS. It
is treatable with a variety of deferent medications with little or no
side affects. I think you should consult your personal physician and
get his opinion, Just so you know ORUS stands for Over Thinker
Underachiever Syndrome.